Political Idolatry: Do We Know it When We See it?

Austin (00:00.046) Grace and peace. Welcome back to United We Pray. Austin Souter, Isaac Adams joined again by Dr. Derwin Gray. How are you sir? I’m doing good. How are you guys doing? We’re doing really well. We’re thankful you decided to come back and join us again. Dr. Gray is pastor of Transformation Church in Indian Land, South Carolina. He’s the author of many books, several of which we’ve highlighted extensively. We’ve got Building a Multiethnic Church, How to Heal Our Racial Divide, and the one we’re going to be talking about today. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (00:07.193) I’m doing good, how you guys doing? Austin (00:28.354) is God, Do You Hear Me? Which is, we’ll get to that more later. Dr. Gray is a graduate of Brigham Young University, Southern Evangelical Seminary and Northern Seminary. He has two adult children and has been married to his wife Vicki since 1992. Did I get all that right? You got it right, my boy. So we wanted to have you on because we’re doing this series on political idolatry and we’re gonna be talking about its history in the United States, we’re gonna be talking about. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (00:43.934) You got it right, my man. Austin (00:55.174) what it is we can do about it, but we wanted to talk to you both as a scholar and a practitioner about how we see political idolatry affecting us at the local church level. And so I’ll just start with a question we’re asking every guest in this series is how would you define political idolatry? Yeah, that’s a great question. And this conversation is very important because it’s about spiritual formation. It’s about discipleship. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (01:11.696) Yeah, that’s a great question. And this conversation is very important because it’s about spiritual formation. It’s about discipleship. So the way I would define political ideology is this way. When a person finds their ultimate hope in a political party for their intended desired results. Austin (01:22.566) So the way I would define a political ideology is this way. When a person finds their ultimate hope in a political party for their intended desired results. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (01:44.432) And so in essence, they are depending upon a political part to do only what the kingdom of God could do. Austin (01:44.658) And so in essence, they are depending upon a political part to do only what the Kingdom of God could do. That’s so good. And we’ll get back more to the Kingdom because of this book and what you wrote about the Kingdom of God from the Lord’s Prayer. But how has political idolatry affected churches in America? And you can answer that either based on things you’ve seen in your church or things you’ve wanted to guard your church against that you’ve seen elsewhere. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (02:14.168) Yeah, you know, I think the first thing is any form of idolatry is going to distract us from Jesus. And when we’re distracted from Jesus, we’re distracted from the capacity to love each other and have rational conversations. The agenda of man usurps the agenda of God. So, but let me pause here. Austin (02:14.39) Yeah, you know, I think the first thing is any form of idolatry is going to distract us from Jesus. And we’re distracted from Jesus. We’re distracted from the capacity to love each other and have rational conversations. The agenda of man usurps the agenda of God. So, but let me pause here. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (02:42.464) Politics is a measure of God’s common grace. So for example, I’m thankful for Abraham Lincoln, right? So I’m thankful for the Civil Rights Movement. I’m sure that people in Eastern Europe are thankful for democracy in the fall of the Berlin Wall. So this is not to say that politics do not play an important role. Austin (02:42.702) Politics is a measure of God’s common grace. So for example, I’m thankful for Abraham Lincoln. So I’m thankful for the Civil Rights Movement. I’m sure that people in Eastern Europe are thankful for democracy and the fall of the Berlin Wall. So this is not to say that politics do not play an important role. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (03:12.5) They do. They’re just not ultimate. And what I mean by ultimate is this, is that only Jesus and his kingdom can bring about ultimate restoration to humanity and creation. So therefore, we should be involved in the political process, but not to the capacity that it causes us Austin (03:12.726) They do. They’re just not ultimate. And what I mean by ultimate is this, is that only Jesus and his kingdom can bring about ultimate restoration to humanity and creation. So therefore, we should be involved in the political process, but not to the capacity that it causes us Dr. Derwin L. Gray (03:42.804) to be divided against our brothers and sisters. And then let me throw this out too. When you look at the history of Christianity, which is 2,000 years, I would say that 99.999% of all Christians have no clue what a Republican or Democrat is. Austin (03:43.042) to be divided against our brothers and sisters. And then let me throw this out too. When you look at the history of Christianity, which is 2,000 years, I would say that 99.999% of all Christians have no clue what a Republican or Democrat is. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (04:06.78) So if we make it a litmus test that you’re voting Republican or Democrat, defining you as a Christian, then that’s an epic problem. Because we got brothers and sisters all around the world who don’t have a clue what a Republican or Democrat is. Austin (04:07.006) So if we make it a litmus test that you’re voting Republican or Democrat, defining you as a Christian, that’s an epic problem. Yeah. Cuz we got brothers and sisters all around the world who don’t have a clue what a Republican or Democrat is. Dr. Gray, one thing I wanted to press double click on from what you said was you talked about, it was it was curious to me that you said the first thing when we’re divided by, when we’re distracted from Jesus is that we can’t have rational conversations with each other. Is there something from your experience as a pastor that you’re highlighting almost? Our ability to speak with one another. I’m just thinking of James, the tongue is a small member but sets a forest ablaze. Galatians, watch out that you don’t bite and devour each other. Anything from your pastoral experience? Oh, absolutely, yeah. We’ve had tons of people that have left Transformation Church. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (04:47.26) Pfft. Ha ha ha! Dr. Derwin L. Gray (05:00.864) Oh, absolutely, yeah. We’ve had tons of people that have left Transformation Church for me saying things like police brutality is the reality. Not every policeman, just like not every pastor, is dysfunctional. There’s some dysfunctional policemen. There’s some police dysfunctional cultures. Austin (05:10.786) for me saying things like police brutality is a reality. Not every policeman, just like not every pastor, is dysfunctional. There’s some dysfunctional policemen, there’s some police dysfunctional cultures. And so when we talk about accountability, I have had Christians somehow believe that Dr. Derwin L. Gray (05:29.84) And so when we talk about accountability, I have had Christians somehow believe that total depravity just skipped the police department. And so you can’t speak logically when someone has an emotional hurt. And so at that point, you just have to live as peaceably as possible. Austin (05:40.798) Total depravity just skipped the police department. And so you can’t speak logically when someone has an emotional hurt. And so at that point you just have to live as peaceably as possible towards your brother or sister. I’m not responsible for anybody’s emotions, but I am responsible to be respectful. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (05:59.068) towards your brother or sister. I’m not responsible for anybody’s emotions, but I am responsible to be respectful. Austin (06:09.442) Thank you for letting me double click on that. So when I think of the word idolatry, this is something I’ve been thinking through that maybe you can help out with. I’m sort of thinking of idolatry as either uppercase or lowercase idolatry. And there’s, all of us are susceptible to it. We can all value things wrongly, but it seems like there might be a point at which it crosses over from sort of common run-of-the-mill struggle to taking over. our faith and become the ultimate desire of our of our affections as you mentioned earlier. Do you think there’s something to that? Is this a sliding slide? Absolutely. Yeah it is. When we look at America, a 247 year old country, we pride ourselves on being the greatest country that there’s ever been. And a lot of people who believe that have never traveled outside of the United States. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (06:40.316) Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it is, when you look at America, a 247 year old country, we pride ourselves on being the greatest country that there’s ever been. And a lot of people who believe that have never traveled outside of the United States. So it can be even idolatry in the national symbol of being an American. Austin (07:04.19) So it can be even idolatry in the national symbol of being an American. And any identity that we place above Christian is going to have more influence than being in Christ. That’s why we must live and leave from our Christness. Because if not, then we’re going to have these little idols Dr. Derwin L. Gray (07:10.712) And any identity that we place above Christian is going to have more influence than being in Christ. That’s what we must live and leave from our in Christness. Because if not, then we’re going to have these little idols always chipping away. And so when you look at the last, say, Austin (07:32.322) always chipping away. And so when you look at the last, say, since 2016, as a Christian, I’d always heard that a president’s character and the things they do matters. And that Bill Dr. Derwin L. Gray (07:39.228) since 2016. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (07:43.552) As a Christian, I’d always heard that a president’s character and the things they do matters. And that Bill Clinton was the worst thing ever since basically the devil. But then all of a sudden, Donald James Trump runs from president and none of those things matter. That is blatant hypocrisy and the blinding that idolatry brings. Austin (07:59.254) But then all of a sudden Donald James Trump runs from president and none of those things matter. That is blatant hypocrisy and the blinding that idolatry brings. There were other Republican candidates who had much better character and political experience. And so I think that’s an example of how idolatry can blind you to Christian ethics. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (08:11.904) There were other Republican candidates who had much better character and political experience. And so I think that’s an example of how idolatry can blind you to Christian ethics. Austin (08:27.006) And I think that connects with that last point you were just making, even about conversations, is that you spoke about how it’s hard to ration with someone just based on an emotional level, if all they’re relating from is a place of emotion. But if you’re relating from a place of sin or idolatry, sin is irrational. And so you can’t reason your way out of a hypocritical position if someone’s committed to that because of… Yeah, because you’re not dealing with reason. Yeah, you’re not dealing with truth. You’re not dealing with reason. You’re dealing with, yeah. You know, psychologists call it cognitive difference. That there’s something that you deeply desire, but reality contradicts that. So you escape reality and live in your lie. And that happens on the political left as well. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (08:58.333) Yeah. You know, psychologists call it cognitive dissonance. That there’s something that you deeply desire, but reality contradicts that. So you escape reality and live in your life. And that happens on the political left as well. I mean, because it’s not like the political left represents Jesus. Neither does the political right. So what we say at Transformation Church is this. Austin (09:21.982) I mean, because it’s not like the political left represents Jesus. Neither does the political right. So what we say at Transformation Church is this. It’s Jesus is not an elephant or a donkey. He is the Lamb. And we must engage this world from His perspective. Which means that you can have born again serious followers of Christ Dr. Derwin L. Gray (09:31.12) is Jesus is not a elephant or a donkey. He is the lamb. And we must engage this world from his perspective. Which means that you can have born again, serious followers of Christ who are in the Democratic Party, who are not pro LGBTQ or abortion. And you can have believers who are pro Trump. Austin (09:49.07) who are in the Democratic Party, who are not pro-LGBTQ or abortion, and we can have believers who are pro-Trump, who are not into the things that are dysfunctional that he does. We have to stop making this feel black and white and realize that in a fallen world, there’s no perfect political system. But what I want to say is this. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (10:01.748) who are not into the things that are dysfunctional that he does. We have to stop making it so black and white and realize that in a fallen world, there’s no perfect political system. But what I want to say is this. What are we doing as the church? We should be doing homelessness. We should be doing mental health. We should be feeding. We should do the things that Jesus did by the grace of Jesus. Austin (10:19.626) What are we doing as the church? We should be doing homelessness. We should be doing mental health. We should be feeding. We should do the things that Jesus did by the grace of Jesus. So some of the things that we’ve done at our church is not only have we seen 8,000 people come to faith in 13 years, we’ve also made a million meals for people who are in need. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (10:32.096) So some of the things that we’ve done at our church is not only have we seen 8,000 people come to faith in 13 years, we’ve also made a million meals for people who are in need. And we’ve also canceled medical debt to the millions of dollars. So Jesus wants to save the whole of humanity, not just the soul of humanity. Austin (10:49.758) And they’ve also canceled medical debt to the millions of dollars. So Jesus wants to save the whole of humanity, not just the soul of humanity. And we see that in his life. So I want to see the church be more of a kingdom of God movement instead of worrying about who’s in the White House. Yeah, it’s so distracting. I want to Dr. Derwin L. Gray (11:02.056) And we see that in his life. So I want to see the church be more of a kingdom of God movement instead of worrying about who’s in the White House. Austin (11:16.206) pause real quick and try turning down one thing and see if that helps our echo situation. I just thought of one other thing I could try. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (11:28.496) yet it echoes killing me. Austin (11:28.714) Yeah, the echo’s killing me. Yeah, man, I’m sorry about that. Let’s see, we’re going to try one thing. Austin (11:37.422) It sounds way better here. Austin (11:41.474) Does it sound better there? Did that do anything for you? Hello, hello! No, it’s… I can still hear. Oh, I’m sorry. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. I mean… Dr. Derwin L. Gray (11:43.208) Hello, hello. No, it’s, I can, I can still hear. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. I mean. Austin (11:57.738) Well, the good news is… Hold up, hold up! Dr. Derwin L. Gray (11:58.568) HURRY Dr. Derwin L. Gray (12:02.772) Oh, I don’t know. I mean, as long as you can hear it, I’ma push through, but it’s very hard. Austin (12:04.879) I don’t know. I mean as long as you can hear it, I’m gonna push through but it’s very hard. I’m sorry about that. If you can push through, our producers can take care of it. But uh. How much more time do we got? 15 minutes ish. All right, I’ll try to do it because I’m literally hearing it just. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (12:16.885) How much more time do we got? Dr. Derwin L. Gray (12:22.68) Alright, I’ll try to do it, because I’m literally hearing it just… I’m liking a 12 round fight. Austin (12:27.91) I’m sorry. I’m liking a 12 round fight. Oh, I’m sorry. If you take off the head will it come through the speaker? Yeah. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (12:38.336) Hello, hello. I mean, at least now, I mean, it’s not directly in my ears, but I still hear. I mean, this is really weird. I’ve never had this happen before. Austin (12:38.578) Hello, hello? Yeah, we can still hear you. I mean, at least now, I mean, it’s not directly in my ears, but I still hear. Okay. I mean, this is really weird. I’ve never had this happen before. Yeah, we haven’t either. I’m sorry it’s giving you so much trouble. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (12:58.696) All right, let’s see if we can make it happen. Austin (12:58.922) Alright, let’s see if we can make it happen. Alright. So let’s talk then about the marks of political idolatry. What does a political idolatrous person do that shows you this might be a problem in their life? Well, I’m not sure I’m the right person because I haven’t really studied political idolatry to be able to speak authoritatively on marks. That’s probably more of a… Dr. Derwin L. Gray (13:11.988) Well, I’m not sure I’m the right person because I haven’t really studied political idolatry to be able to speak authoritatively on marks. That’s probably more of a sociologist question. I would just say this, anything that causes you to divide from your brothers and sisters because of a non-essential theological position, I think would lead to idolatry. Also, Austin (13:21.118) sociologist question. I would just say this, anything that causes you to divide from your brothers and sisters because of a non-essential theological position, I think would lead to idolatry. Also, Dr. Derwin L. Gray (13:38.204) When your candidate wins, you have almost salvific joy. If your candidate loses, you almost have salvific disappointment. You demonize those who are your political opponent. You misrepresent them. One of the things that’s really disappointing in our culture, particularly even from Christians, is you should never. Austin (13:38.45) When your candidate wins, you have almost salvific joy. If your candidate loses, you almost have salvific disappointment. You demonize those who are your political opponent. You misrepresent them. One of the things that’s really disappointing in our culture, particularly from Christians, is you should never Dr. Derwin L. Gray (14:03.676) You should never present your opponent’s perspective in a way that is beneath what they would say. And we live in a day and age now where people are okay with misrepresentation, but the Bible calls that slander and gossip, and it’s a sin. So even people I disagree with, I wanna represent them to the fully, because one, it’s about honoring Jesus. Austin (14:03.902) You should never present your opponent’s perspective in a way that is beneath what they would say. And we live in a day and age now where people are okay with misrepresentation, but the Bible calls that slander and gossip and it’s a sin. So even people I disagree with, I want to represent them to the fully because one, it’s about honoring Jesus. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (14:30.5) And so I think we need to be a lot slower in reposting articles. Um, you know, just cause some, somebody post something online don’t mean it’s true. Austin (14:30.75) And so I think we need to be a lot more in reposting articles. You know, just because somebody posts something online don’t mean it’s true. Yeah, for sure. Really? Is that how that works? Well, let’s talk about let’s talk about 2020, because that was a hard year for a lot of reasons. One of the reasons it was hard for me is that it showed sort of the extent of this problem in so many churches across the country. And at the time, I was seeing a lot of think pieces come out by Christians that were critiquing bad ideas. And they were critiquing whether it was they were on the right and they were critiquing something like critical race theory or they were on the left and they were critiquing something like Christian nationalism. They seemed to think that if we just got rid of the bad ideas, everything would be fixed. But what I appreciate in how you talk about it in How to Heal Our Racial Divide is you talk about the posture of our hearts and how we hold our convictions. So it’s not just as easy as, you know, critiquing bad ideas. Whatever your politics are, if you’re holding onto them too tightly and putting your joy in them, it’s gonna be a problem, right? Yeah. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (15:40.88) Yeah, it is. And so the political process matters. So I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’m grateful for the Civil Rights Movement, which was led by Southern Black Christians and also rejected by many white evangelicals. So politics do matter. They just don’t matter ultimately. Politics mattered in Nazi Germany. You had a whole country fall asleep. And Austin (15:42.99) It is. And so the political process matters. So I’m not saying it doesn’t. Like, I’m grateful for the civil rights movement, which was led by southern black Christians, and also rejected by many white evangelicals. Right? So politics do matter, they just don’t matter ultimately. Politics mattered in Nazi Germany, right? You had a whole country fall asleep, and Dr. Derwin L. Gray (16:10.112) One of the greatest tragedies in human history took place and much of the Lutheran Church was in alliance with Hitler and his demonic actions. But you still had people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who ultimately gave his life in what was right. So I’m not saying politics don’t matter. What I’m saying is that Jesus and his gospel matters. I’m going to have a mini rant here, right? We need… Austin (16:10.354) one of the greatest tragedies in human history took place and much of the Lutheran Church was in alliance with Hitler and his demonic actions. But you still have people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who openly gave his life in what was right. So I’m not saying politics don’t matter. What I’m saying is that Jesus and his gospel matters. I’m going to have a mini rant here, right? We need… Dr. Derwin L. Gray (16:37.052) Spirit-filled, Jesus-loving, kingdom-advancing people in every political party to hold them account to be as close to the kingdom of God as possible. But I don’t think churches produce Christians like that. Let me take that back. Austin (16:37.31) Spirit-filled, Jesus-loving, human-advancing people in every political party to hold them account to be as close to the Kingdom of God as possible. But I don’t think churches produce Christians like that. Let me take that back. We need more churches that produce Christians like that, but for Christians to be produced with that type of ethos, it requires them to have a single-minded focus in the grace Dr. Derwin L. Gray (16:54.524) We need more churches that produce Christians like that, but for Christians to be produced with that type of ethos, it requires them to have a single-minded focus in the grace of God. We’re distracted by too many things, and when we are distracted, we’re no longer attracted to the kingdom of God. And so we need pulpits that are bloody with the magnificence of Jesus and his resurrected life. Austin (17:07.164) of God. We’re distracted by too many things and when we are distracted we’re no longer attracted to the kingdom of God. And so we need pulpits that are bloody with the magnificence of Jesus and his resurrected life. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (17:23.18) so that we can be influenced and shaped by him, that when we do go into politics, we don’t give in to lobbyists. We don’t give in to interest groups. We don’t give in to pettiness. We don’t give in to ethnocentrism. The only thing we give into is the kingdom of God. We need believers like Dietrich Bonhoeffer to raise up. And even Dr. King, the man was 38 years old, and gave his life for what? So American citizens could do what the Constitution afforded them. Austin (17:23.418) so that we can be influenced and shaped by him that when we do go into politics, we don’t give in to lobbyists, we don’t give in to interest groups, we don’t give in to pettiness, we don’t give in to ethnocentrism. The only thing we give into is the kingdom of God. We need believers like Dietrich Bonhoeffer to raise up and even Dr. King, the man was 38 years old, Austin (17:48.734) So American citizens could do what the Constitution afforded them to be able to vote. So we need churches. Like we can blame the culture, but we need to go back to the pulpit. We need to go back to our disciples and strategies. We need to go back to individual Christians and say, who is Lord? Has the uncircumcised of Christ captured you? Where you say, God, all of me belongs to all of you. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (17:52.904) to be able to vote. So we need churches. Like, we can blame the culture, but we need to go back to the pulpit. We need to go back to our discipleship strategies. We need to go back to individual Christians and say, who is Lord? Has the Uncircumcised Writ of Christ captured you to where you say, God, all of me belongs to all of you? Austin (18:19.502) I wanted to get to this book, God Do You Hear Me? This is a great book. This is my favorite kind of book because it’s just an extended meditation and application on scripture and an in-depth look at the Lord’s Prayer. So as you’ve been talking about, how should Jesus’ teaching on the kingdom reshape, redirect, reform our political convictions and how we hold them? Yeah, well, I think number one is we don’t talk about the kingdom of God enough. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (18:42.748) Yet what I think number one is we don’t talk about the kingdom of God enough. And Jesus said in Mark, the earliest gospel, you know, I have come, you know, the kingdom of God is at hand, repent, believe the good news. So what exactly is the kingdom of God? The kingdom of God is this. Jesus, the way he lived, the way he talked and his redemptive, Austin (18:48.562) And Jesus said in Mark, the earliest gospel, you know, I have come, you know, the kingdom of God is at hand, repent, believe in good news. So what exactly is the kingdom of God? The kingdom of God is this. Jesus, the way he lived, the way he talked, and his redemptive, self-impic actions. Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom. How beautiful is it? Dr. Derwin L. Gray (19:10.856) Jesus is the embodiment of the kingdom. How beautiful is it that the eternal, everlasting God comes among us as a human to show us the face of God, but then to show us what a kingdom citizen looks like, and then through his life, death, and resurrection, and ascension, he invites us into that kingdom. Austin (19:16.47) that the eternal, everlasting God comes among us as a human to show us the face of God, but then to show us what a kingdom citizen looks like, and then through his life, death, and resurrection, and ascension, he invites us into that kingdom. I don’t know about you guys, but my heart is bursting right now that there’s nothing that great that literally God is saying, I’m going to show you myself, I’m going to show you who you could be, I’m going to show you what I’m offering you, and then I’m going Dr. Derwin L. Gray (19:32.296) I don’t know about you guys, but my heart is bursting right now. That there’s nothing that great that literally God is saying, I’m going to show you myself. I’m going to show you who you could be. I’m going to show you what I’m offering you. And then I’m going to give you that opportunity to actually become that. So when we understand that the kingdom of God looks like Jesus, and specifically when you read the Beatitudes. Matthew chapter 5, 1 through 13. Austin (19:46.384) I’m gonna give you that opportunity to actually become that. So when we understand that the kingdom of God looks like Jesus, and specifically, when we read the Beatitudes, Matthew chapter five, one through 13, we see these characteristics of what the kingdom of God looks like. So put your political positions and sift them through what the kingdom of God looks like. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (20:02.46) we see these characteristics of what the kingdom of God looks like. So put your political positions and sift them through what the kingdom of God looks like. So, as a matter of fact, Matthew 5, 6, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. The word righteousness now, Austin (20:17.274) So matter of fact, Matthew 5-6, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. The word righteousness now in Greek could also mean justice. Well, what is God’s justice? For a 4th century Jewish person, God’s justice is the embodiment of love. Loving God and then loving your neighbors, you love yourself. And specifically, to love your neighbors and to love yourself means you welcome the immigrant. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (20:29.792) in Greek can also mean justice. But what is God’s justice? For a first century Jewish person, God’s justice is the embodiment of love. Loving God and then loving your neighbors, you love yourself. And specifically to love your neighbors and love yourself means you welcome the immigrant. It means that you leave vegetation on your fields so the solider could get it and go, what kind of God is this? These people are generous. It’s a sacrificial Christ shaped life, which means not what’s in it for me, but what’s in it for the we and not just Christians. The kingdom of God means the overflow of my life and God’s blessed people who don’t even like Jesus. Austin (20:48.598) It means that you leave vegetation on your field so the soldier there could get it and go, what kind of God is this? These people are generous. It’s a sacrificial Christ-shaped life, which means not what’s in it for me, but what’s in it for the weak, and not just Christians. The kingdom of God means the overflow of my life and God should bless people who don’t even like Jesus. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (21:19.44) So I think the beatitudes is that litmus test that we can all look at it. When we do, we go, wow, we have two political parties and neither one of them is it. But I’m called as an American citizen to participate in the political process. Here’s one of the questions that I proposed before Transformation Church congregation. I said, what if you lived in Norway and you’re a Christian and there’s 11 different political parties and neither one of them is Republican or Democrat? Austin (21:19.702) So I think the Beatitudes is that witness test that we can all look at it. When we do, we go, wow, we have two political parties and neither one of them is it, but I’m called as an American citizen to participate in the political process. Here’s one of the questions that I proposed before the Transformation Church Congress, the indication. I said, what if you live in Norway, and you’re a Christian, and there’s 11 different political parties and neither one of them is Republican or Democrat? Dr. Derwin L. Gray (21:48.7) If you can’t live your faith, you’re a political idolater. Austin (21:48.958) If you can’t live your faith, we’re political ideology. Austin (21:57.218) So we’re going to have a whole episode on sort of what to do about this mess we find ourselves in. But sort of as we close, can you give any advice for interacting with someone who’s really divisive on this issue? Dr. Derwin L. Gray (22:11.812) Yes, number one, live peaceably toward them. Your job is not to convince them, but it’s your job through the Holy Spirit’s power not to enter into their circle of dysfunction. Austin (22:12.286) Yes, number one, live peaceably toward them. Your job is not to convince them, but it is your job to the Holy Spirit’s power not to enter into their circle of dysfunction. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (22:30.36) Number two, practice what you preach. Embody the kingdom of God yourself. And number three, as you engage in a political process, make sure that you’re prophetic towards the party that you’re in. Austin (22:30.794) Number two, practice what you preach. Embody the kingdom of God yourself. And number three, as you engage in the political process, make sure that you’re prophetic towards the party that you’re in. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (22:52.176) or that you’re a part of. Austin (22:52.594) or that you’re a part of. Not just speaking to the other side, speaking to your own. Yeah, because one of the things I’m learning, the world has just changed so much, is everybody wants to blame everybody else, but no one looks in the mirror and say, well, what can I do better? Dr. Derwin L. Gray (22:56.94) Yeah, because one of the things I’m learning, the world has just changed so much, is everybody wants to blame everybody else, but no one looks in the mirror and say, well, what can I do better? Austin (23:14.174) And even, I mean, I’m just sort of processing what you said, but it’s so obviously true that if you’re involved in a party, you may have some influence there. Folks in the other party don’t, that doesn’t matter to them what you think of their position. They are, you know, aligned differently. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (23:33.008) Yeah, and we live in an era where populism now is the main thing. And it’s this, the big institutions are screwing you over. The rich are getting richer. You’re the victim. And, you know, as far as I can see, the Republican Party really doesn’t exist anymore at this point. Austin (23:33.238) Yeah, and we live in an era where populism now is the main thing. And it’s this, the big institutions are screwing you over, the rich are getting richer, you’re the victim. And, you know, as far as I can see, the Republican Party really doesn’t exist anymore at this point. And even President Obama, if he was a Democratic president now, they would consider him conservative. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (23:56.148) And even President Obama, if he was a Democratic president now, they would consider him conservative. And so the goalposts have definitely moved, but the eternal kingdom of God is not. We need to root ourselves in scripture more than TikTok and Instagram. Austin (24:03.814) And so the goalposts are definitely looming, but the eternal kingdom of God is not. We need to root ourselves in scripture more than TikTok and Instagram. Amen. And what a comfort, right? We serve an unchanging God. I, the Lord, do not change, therefore you are not destroyed. Austin (24:24.928) any closing thoughts Isaac before we do what we really need to do and pray. One closing thought is just thank you for the, I feel like the Lord personally has been stirring me to just be meditating more and thinking more on the Beatitudes. So you just, that image of sifting things, our convictions through the Beatitudes is helpful. So thank you for that. You’re welcome. And if you guys are interested, I wrote a book called A Good Life, what Jesus teaches about true happiness, which is on the Beatitudes. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (24:48.776) You’re welcome. And if you guys are interested, I wrote a book called The Good Life, What Jesus Teaches About True Happiness, which is on the Beatitudes. So I would have named it, Dive into the Beatitudes, but it would have never sold. So it became a best seller because it is like the good life and the Beatitudes is what makes the good life. Austin (24:59.538) So I would have named it, Dive into the Beatitudes, but it would have never sold. So it became a bestseller because it is like the good life. And the Beatitudes is what makes the good life. Austin (25:19.918) Why don’t we do this? Why don’t we close and just praying for ourselves for… Austin (25:27.338) I open this, Dr. Cree. Austin (25:33.793) Thank you so much. Austin (25:42.334) shifting and confusing times, you are utterly reliable. And so we ask for our churches, for our people, that we would focus on you and your priorities and what you’ve commanded us to do and let that be our biggest priority and where we put our hope and our joy, not in a culture losing its mind, but in a God who never changes and who promises good for his people. We praise in Jesus name. Amen. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (26:15.528) Holy Spirit, I pray that through the shed blood of Christ, His ascension and the power of His resurrection, that we, your people, would submerge ourselves in the mystery of Christ, which is the hope of glory, Christ in us. Christ in the beginning, Christ in the middle, Christ in. I pray this in Jesus’ name, amen. Austin (26:36.865) I pray this in Indonesian for you. Amen. Dr. Gray, I hate to do this to you. The audio dumped out right as you started praying. Would you mind doing that again? I’ll do it again. All right. Holy Spirit, I pray that through the shared blood of Christ, the sinless life, and His ascension and resurrection, to the glory of the Father that we would captivate our hearts, that our gaze would be set upon you, that we would behold you, and you would take hold of us. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (26:48.232) I’ll do it again. All right. Holy Spirit, I pray that through the shed blood of Christ, His sinless life and His ascension and resurrection to the glory of the Father, that you would captivate our hearts, that our gaze would be set upon you, that we would behold you and you would take hold of us and express your kingdom in us and through us. Be exalted. Austin (27:11.546) and express your kingdom in us and through us. Be exalted. We love you because you first loved us. Amen. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (27:16.796) We love you because you first loved us. Amen. Austin (27:22.498) Father, as our brother was exhorting us not to consider the kingdom of our blessed Savior, Jesus Christ, we pray the prayer he taught us. As he said, pray like this, our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Lord, do that in this political season and in every year we pray in Jesus’ name. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (28:03.418) Amen. Austin (28:03.762) Amen. Dr. Gray, thank you so much for coming on with us. And friends, thank you so much for listening. Gray, some teas. Hey, you guys are welcome. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (28:08.869) Hey, you guys are welcome. Austin (28:12.654) Thank you, man. We appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you guys, too. Dr. Derwin L. Gray (28:15.3) Hey, I appreciate you guys too.