Political Virtues: Hope

Austin (01:17.72) Grace and peace, friends. Welcome back to United We Pray. Austin Souter joined again by Joshua Chapman. How are you, sir? Joshua Chatman (01:23.47) What’s going on? I’m doing well. Excited to be with you on the podcast. Thank you for having me. How you doing, Austin? Austin (01:30.392) I’m doing well. We were just talking off camera about the heat in Birmingham, but I’m making it. Joshua Chatman (01:35.822) Same here, brother. Austin (01:37.176) Bad time to have the AC go out in your car though. That just happened to me yesterday. Joshua Chatman (01:42.35) Ooh, ooh, we’re gonna put that on the prayer list to be praying about. Austin (01:45.784) Thank you. Thank you. And Josh, we’ve had you on the podcast. Plenty listeners will be familiar with you. Listeners, if you’re not, you can check the link in the show notes for his bio for more information about him, for links to his excellent podcast, Train Him Up. But I wanted to thank you specifically for coming on this series to talk politics with us. We’ve been doing the series on political virtues. What are the Christian virtues that help us live out our faith in the arena of politics? So we had Steve Bateman on last week to talk about faith. Caitlin Schess is coming on next week to talk about love. and this week you sir are talking about hope. So tell me Reverend Chapman, what hope does the Christian have? Joshua Chatman (02:30.414) Yeah, so one hope is this forward thinking, forward looking, you know what I’m saying? Like it’s this, it’s looking forward to something with confident expectation. And Christians are the only ones who have hope, not because we say it, but because our hope is in what God has promised. So what God has spoken in his word. And so our hope is grounded in the promises of God, knowing that he who promises faithful. And so it’s important. for us to remember that. And in light of that, we have hope in the future promises that he has said in his word. And so there are a number of categories that can be used to break down when we think through hope. Like, so you have hope in the here and now, you have hope in the future, you have… hope in, yeah, you have hope in here and now, hope in the future, all grounded in God’s promises, like the here and now that the Lord is with us. The future, because of Christ has, and all of these are grounded because of Jesus’ resurrection from the grave. And we have hope in the future that, he’ll wipe away every tear from our eyes, that death will be no more, that the dwelling place of God is with man and that he will dwell with his people. And so we have these precious promises that gives us hope right now. And we experience these promises in part and we wait for the fullness of it to come. Yeah. Austin (03:59.576) No, that’s so good. And as you were talking there, it sort of seems like there’s three main categories there. It’s like hope in the here and now, hope for the future that God is sovereign and that he’s working all things together for the good of those who love him. And then third, hope for eternity. So let’s talk about each one of those in turn and then we’ll circle back and we’ll apply those to the area of politics. So what promises has God given us for the here and now? Joshua Chatman (04:06.766) Mm -hmm. Joshua Chatman (04:12.334) Yes. Absolutely. Joshua Chatman (04:22.094) Okay? Okay? Joshua Chatman (04:28.43) One comes to mind is so Matthew six in the summer on the Mount Jesus tells his disciples, do not worry about your life. What are you gonna eat? What are you gonna drink? What are you gonna wear? So we have, and he makes clear that he cares for us. He knows our needs and he meets our needs. And so he, we have this hope that of man, God will meet the needs of his people, the most basic necessities, food, clothing, water, like the Lord. He will meet those. And so we have one that, two, God’s presence. We see that in the Old and New Testament. Think about Isaiah 41 .10, fear not for I am with you. Be not dismayed for I am your God. I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Hebrews 13 assures us and reminds us of the promise that God’s is with his people. The Lord is my helper, so whom shall I fear? Austin, what would you add to that, brother? Austin (05:37.496) There’s there’s so many you can look at something like Psalm 46 which just highlights everything you’ve been saying that God is a very present help in trouble, right? Therefore I will not be dismayed. Therefore I will not fear, right? Joshua Chatman (05:46.158) Hmm, yeah. Come on. Yeah. Austin (05:52.152) I’m thinking of the promises who got to be with us, but more than that to indwell us. Like Jeremiah 31, Ephesians 1, like the spirit is in us as a seal of our inheritance, comforting us, encouraging us. And I was just thinking, even as you were talking, we’ll probably circle back to this later, but. Joshua Chatman (05:58.414) Mmm. Yeah! Yeah! Austin (06:11.672) Jeremiah 31, the solution to Israel’s problem is that God will indwell them, will write his law on their hearts. Right? So much, I don’t think we think about this enough, so much… Joshua Chatman (06:19.278) Come on. Yeah. Austin (06:24.536) of the idolatry that happened in the Old Testament was motivated in part by political anxiety. They were worried about these other nations around them, right? And it was political anxiety that drove them to adopt the customs of the peoples around them that were contrary to God’s law. And so it’s not like we have to do many moves of application to make it relevant to us. It’s the same thing, except that we now have the spirit. And then I think, too, I mean, just Joshua Chatman (06:32.302) Wow. Joshua Chatman (06:47.566) Mmm. Austin (06:53.816) Matthew 28, all authority is mine, therefore go. Like, all, how much authority? How much authority, Jesus? Like, right. Joshua Chatman (06:55.598) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (06:59.534) Yes! All. All. Come on. Come on. And in the Greek, all is all. Austin (07:06.976) But… Yeah, yeah, I see that here. Yeah. Joshua Chatman (07:12.526) Amen, brother. Austin (07:14.649) I really enjoy talking Bible with you, Josh. This is fun. Okay, that’s all amazing. Like, praise God for the here and the now. We have a God who is with us, who will not forsake us, and who happens to be all powerful. Like, okay, that’s great. What about the future? As we look forward in our lives, what hope do we have? Joshua Chatman (07:26.542) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joshua Chatman (07:38.67) Well, you have the promise and the certainty that everything will work together for the good of his people. So think about Romans chapter eight, verse 28. You know, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for the good -oes who love him, who are called according to his purpose. And so we have that hope that regardless good and bad, God is going to providentially and sovereignly use it in our lives for his good. And because he has been for us and after our good from before the foundation of the world. And he will continue to be that way for us in all things, all the way until he glorifies, you know, and so we have this certain hope. You think about Hebrews chapter 12, like, man, it’s… after it talks about how Jesus endured the cross, despising the shame, seated at the right hand of the Father, he tells us, you know, not grow weary. And then he goes into discipline. You know, how the Lord disciplines those whom he loves. And so he is saying, he’s using everything, even the fatherly chastisement to sanctify us and make us more like Jesus. And so even his discipline, gives us hope and in fact, it assures us of his love for us, his chastisement is to sanctify us. And so I would say some of those things, brother, I know you know the word, so go ahead and add to it. Austin (09:25.24) You were keeping the answer very personal, which is scripture is so rich and kind in how it makes these promises personal and tangible to the Christian. I don’t think we should ever be ashamed or afraid of claiming those promises for ourselves because God gave them to us that way, right? So, I mean, my sort of life verse, Philippians 1 .6, he who began a good work and you will carry it to completion. I mean, that has encouraged me probably more than any other verse in the Bible. Joshua Chatman (09:50.35) Mmm. Joshua Chatman (09:54.83) Hmm. Austin (09:56.88) I go Romans 5 Suffering strengthens faith which produces hope like God bringing us through trials Whether it’s the grace he supplies in the trial or whether we get to the other end of the trial and realize we’re still here And we’re still saved like those That’s where hope comes from. Hope doesn’t come from everything being rosy all the time. You know what I mean? No, that’s where that’s where complacency lives, right? Joshua Chatman (10:02.798) Yeah? Yeah? Joshua Chatman (10:12.878) Mm -hmm. Yes. Joshua Chatman (10:20.494) Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And even when you think about that, like Romans eight comes to mind. The great Romans eight is like my favorite chapter in the Bible. And in the context of life being fallen, Romans eight, 18, all the way down, he says like, you know, we have the first fruits, we have the spirit, we wait eagerly, we groan, and we have this hope of the redemption of our bodies. And so even here in this life, Austin (10:24.504) Another one I – Joshua Chatman (10:51.278) In the midst of the suffering that we experience, we still have this hope because of what Christ has done for us that we look forward to in the future. Austin (11:01.528) Amen. And just to add another category or wrinkle to this, because God has given us individual promises and we should cling tightly to those. That’s our lifeline. He’s also reminded us that he’s doing things that are way above our pay grade. Like I’m thinking Job 40 and 41. Like, where were you? What were you doing when I was putting this thing together? Where were you when I made the sea monsters? Right. Like and Joshua Chatman (11:17.838) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (11:27.982) Mmm. Austin (11:30.296) Job is really asking the question, you know, why do bad things happen? What do we make of our suffering? And the answer is that’s above your pay grade. You actually lack the capacity. It’s not that I’m withholding it from you. You can’t understand it. And… Joshua Chatman (11:41.614) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (11:45.774) Wow. Wow. Austin (11:48.952) As we think about all that’s going on in the world and we’re, I know I like wrestle so tightly to understand things because I think if I understand them, they won’t scare me. I don’t have to understand them. I can understand everything. And I know somebody that does and he’s actually the one in control of it. Joshua Chatman (11:58.642) Same. Yeah. Come on, come on. Austin (12:06.328) So when things are scary in the world, like lean hard onto the sovereignty of God over all things, all arenas, all politicians, all leaders, even the evil ones, right? Joshua Chatman (12:13.39) Mmm. Joshua Chatman (12:17.518) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You preaching. You are preaching. Come on now. Austin (12:24.184) I only do that when you come on. Like, you have a way of provoking me to do this. Joshua Chatman (12:32.174) That’s all good you going in. Grounding us into truth. Austin (12:35.448) Okay, we gotta keep it moving though. Let’s keep it moving. In a lot of ways, it feels like we could kind of stop there. Like if we understand that God is working in us and he’s working in the world and we don’t have to worry, he actually tells us not to worry, it seems like we could kind of stop there. But scripture doesn’t stop there. And we have an eternal hope. Can you talk about that? Joshua Chatman (12:55.726) Come on. No it doesn’t. Joshua Chatman (13:00.558) Mmm. Yes. One, we are promised and assured of eternal life. The most popular verse in all the Bible, John 3 .16, for God to love the world, that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. And so we have the assurance, the promise, the hope of life with God for all of eternity. knowing Him, being freed from sin, and being with Him. You know? And so, yeah. Austin (13:39.608) Yeah, I mean Jesus on the cross to the thief today you will be with me in paradise and then scripture is so kind to give us like a couple glimpses of what that will be and what it will mean so like Revelation 22 no night. No see nothing scary God himself will be with them and be their light. I mean I can hardly say the words without choking up It’s beautiful Joshua Chatman (13:44.238) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (13:50.03) Come on. Yes. Joshua Chatman (13:56.622) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (14:00.302) Yes. Hmm… Yeah. Austin (14:05.592) You get other pictures of what it will mean implications for I mean for Christians unity we’re not gonna fight up there like Perfect unity between the nations Ephesians 2 Revelation 5 and Importantly as well eternal condemnation of evil like Isaac says all the time. It’s a really good line. I don’t know Racism has an expiration date Joshua Chatman (14:13.998) Mmm. Mmm. Joshua Chatman (14:19.982) Yes. Joshua Chatman (14:31.182) Hmm… Yes. Yeah! Austin (14:33.528) You know, like, a quick story, I was just at, the historic Rick Wood field here in Birmingham for a weekend of celebration of the Negro Leagues. MLB came down, put on a great show and a tribute to Willie Mays who just passed. And then they talked to Reggie Jackson and it was so strange to me because the vibes in the crowd were excellent. Like Birmingham really showed out for this and to celebrate these men who had substandard conditions and were playing segregated baseball Joshua Chatman (15:03.47) Hmm. Austin (15:09.354) and we got to celebrate a bunch of those guys. And then Reggie Jackson, baseball Hall of Famer, gets on the mic and he looks like so uncomfortable and anxious to be back in this stadium where he used to get called the N -word all the time. And it was just, it really drove the point home to me that, you know. that not everyone experiences life the way I do and that there’s some really ugly stuff just under the surface, you know, just not that long ago. And it just made me long for when that’s not gonna be the case. Like we did our best to celebrate these guys, but we didn’t fix anything. You know what I mean? Like we didn’t take away any of that trauma. We didn’t wipe away any tears, but God will. Joshua Chatman (15:33.134) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (15:40.27) Yeah. Mmm, yeah. Yeah. yeah. Joshua Chatman (15:52.398) Yeah, come on now, come on. And with that, I just wanna give a comment. So with that, even like as you talked about the condemnation of, eternal condemnation on judgment of all that is evil, like it does give hope that God will by no means clear the guilty. And that is a, that’s a huge hope for Christians. especially seeing that this age is evil, that there are all kinds of evil that takes place, the perpetuation of it, injustices, that on that final day, every wrong will be made right. And to the point you say, like, yeah, man, he’s there. He’s probably reminded of all those things. And just the promise that you quoted, like Revelation 21 is so comforting to know that, man, the tears. that we have, and that have fallen down our faces, God has promised to one day wipe those things away. You know what I’m saying? Suffering that we’ve experienced, he said that that will be no more. He said there won’t be any pain. No crying, no mourning, all things will be made new. You know, and so it’s like, man, we get to look forward to that, that he will right every wrong, that he will wipe away every tear, that he will make all things right, and he will make all things new. And it’s like, man, praise be to God. Austin (17:24.746) Amen. And I mean, what you’re just saying sort of refutes my original introductory statement that we could stop short of the hope of eternity. I mean, 1 Corinthians 15, 26 suggests otherwise, that Christianity doesn’t make sense, doesn’t work without the hope of glory and the hope of heaven. That if it’s not true, we’re actually of all people most to be pitied. So, and I need that reminder because honestly, like, I don’t think about heaven enough. Joshua Chatman (17:32.846) Mmm. Joshua Chatman (17:45.998) Yeah, facts. Austin (17:54.04) And of all the, it’s, my wife thinks about heaven all the time and she’s such a help to me. I just, I get so caught up in the here and now and in seeing the wrong and fixating on it and I need to lift my gaze. Joshua Chatman (18:00.014) Hmm, praise God. Joshua Chatman (18:10.126) Yeah, same here brother, same here. I’m with you on that. Yeah, I ain’t gonna lie, some of my favorite songs. Getting off topic, some of my favorite songs are the songs that end with having us think about what is to come. Because I’m so prone to not think about it. You know, I’m so prone to only focus on what I can see and be discouraged and. on the brink of despair, but it’s, yeah, the hope of heaven, the hope of eternal life, the hope of the return of Christ and fixing our gaze. It’s so fascinating when you think about the apostle Paul, he’s constantly seeking to fix our gaze on what is to come. And then he says, yeah, this light momentary affliction is nothing in comparison to that. Like fix your gaze there. Austin (19:05.1) I mean I quote Lewis all the time on this podcast. He’s kind of I don’t know he’s kind of my guy but he’s so good at majoring on what scripture majors on. If I can claim it I’ll just claim that you know. But his example of a kid playing in mud because he doesn’t have categories in his head for a holiday at the ocean right. That’s us. That just seems so on the nose for us here. Okay. Joshua Chatman (19:11.566) Ha! Yeah. Joshua Chatman (19:25.614) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (19:29.838) Thanks for watching. Austin (19:30.84) You’ve done a great job at sort of categorizing this, highlighting the different categories of hope. Let’s double back and let’s talk about what these specific hopes do when we’re thinking about politics rightly. So how does the hope that God is with us help us during a difficult political season? Joshua Chatman (19:52.014) I would say it gives confidence and peace in the midst of the chaos that we’re living in as it pertains to politics. The fact that God is with us assures us that God is for us. It reminds us that God cares for us, that he’s sustaining us and strengthening us. And so we don’t have to fear. Man. at all, as if man, a party, a candidate is greater than God, is bigger than God if they can thwart the promises of God, if they can really tie God’s hands behind his back and stop him. And so the reality that God is with us, which he is, for all who trusted in Christ, he is with us in the midst of it. And so it just gives us real confidence in peace as we recall that. as we cast all our cares on him, as we remember that he is God and man is not. Like the Psalmist, I think Psalm 146 tells the put not our trust in princess. And then it begins to expound all the more on the greatness of God. And so to know that that God is so great, who’s so transcendent, he’s also imminent and he’s with us even in the midst of the craziness can just really dispel the fears. that’s being promoted that both parties try to do. Like they try to prey on that. You vote for that person or that party, if they win, then pretty much XYZ. This is gonna be all chaos, the world gonna unravel, our country is going down in a drain and all this stuff like that. But it’s just like, man, that party, yeah, that party ain’t upholding the United States of America. Austin (21:51.032) Church of Jesus Christ. Joshua Chatman (21:51.246) that part or definitely that or the Church of Jesus Christ. You know what I’m saying? And so with that, it’s just like, yeah, God’s got me. And so I’m not about to give in to all these fears that this party is trying to prey on in hopes that I will vote for them. Austin (22:11.64) Well, I want to circle back to that because what you’re saying about the political parties that they run on fear, they’re trying to scare us, that’s not a caricature. They say that in their own words. I’ll link to it if I can find it. There was a great article in the Atlantic and they were interviewing one of the most successful political fundraisers. The man they were interviewing happened to be for the Democratic Party and he said that the secret to his success was that he had to make every election about the end of the world. Joshua Chatman (22:39.822) Hmm. Hmm. Austin (22:40.504) And he said he learned that from watching the Republicans do it. And what he does is he doesn’t frame it as the issue itself, but spinning out the wildest possible scenario of what could happen if the vote doesn’t go his way. And that’s how he raises money. And he’s raised more of it than about anybody. That’s what they’re doing. The game runs on fear. And if we’re exempt from fear, we get to play a different game. And that’s where we get to be salt and light. Joshua Chatman (22:51.95) Hmm. Joshua Chatman (23:00.11) Yeah. Yeah. Joshua Chatman (23:05.55) Mm -hmm. Absolutely. Come on. Austin (23:09.336) Because if we’re stuck on the treadmill playing the same game as everybody else, where the salt has lost its savor, right? Joshua Chatman (23:14.734) Hey, come on now. Yeah, and the fact that God is with us allows us to be motivated by love and not, not, what’s going to happen. You know what I’m saying? Because like God, the Lord has me and now I’m freed up to actually love my neighbors based upon, you know what I’m saying? Like use my vote, use my engagement in politics for the sake of loving my neighbor because I don’t have to fear because the Lord has me and he’s with me. Austin (23:21.688) Yes. Austin (23:41.912) Yeah, I can’t love my neighbor very well if I’m fearful that their vote is going to destroy the world. Right? Yeah. Joshua Chatman (23:50.574) Yeah. yeah. Austin (23:54.136) Okay, let’s move to that second category of hope, the hope of God’s providence both in our lives and in the culture. How do we trust God’s providence as we deal in the political realm? Joshua Chatman (24:05.39) Yeah, so the Lord’s providence is his wise governing over all creation. Like, he is sovereign over all, he is wise and he is governing everything. And for Christians, we know that he is governing all things to the appointed ends, uniting everything in Christ, the new heavens and the new earth. And before I give my answer, one of the, man, a strong go -to verse on the providence of God, the one I just constantly go back to. is Isaiah 46, nine and 10. Like this is a, man, if you don’t know this verse, please learn this verse, cling to it because it really does give hope. Listen to what the Lord says. He says, remember what happened long ago for I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is no one and no one is like me. I declare the end from the beginning and from long ago what is not yet done saying my plan will take place. and I will do all my will. Like, so no one is going to thwart God’s purposes. No one is going to undo any promise that he has made. And so, because he is sovereign over all things and he has made clear that he’s bringing all creation to its appointed ends, Hoping in his promises and his providence means that we can trust the Lord with whatever the outcome is, regardless of who wins in the Oval Office in November, regardless of who takes over the Senate, Congress, like regardless of any of those things, the Lord says that no one will thwart his purposes and that he will do all his will. And so it just gives real peace. And think about, like man, when God spoke this to Israel, like man, you had some crazy kings in some crazy world empires during that time, and not one of them thwarted the purposes and plans of God. Not one. And so it’s like, man, regardless of what takes place, we don’t have to get, we should not get too high or too low because… Joshua Chatman (26:27.566) Regardless, that Oval Office is always changing every four to eight years and God remains on his sovereign throne accomplishing his purposes. And so his providence should give us hope and confidence knowing that he’s bringing every, like Christ has risen from the grave and Jesus promises to return and no one in that Oval Office gonna stop. Austin (26:51.448) I love that answer. I mean, thank you again for just pointing our gaze upward. I think it’s important too to remember that this has ethical implications because it’s not like we can’t have political convictions. It’s not like we can’t care a lot about what happens, but it doesn’t, it shouldn’t, once it’s affecting our hope, once it’s affecting our joy, that’s a sign that it’s become an idol. That’s why we’re doing this whole series in the first place. There’s a quote I really like. Joshua Chatman (26:59.47) facts. Joshua Chatman (27:05.294) yeah. Joshua Chatman (27:15.182) Yes. Austin (27:18.456) by Thomas Brooks. I brought the book over there somewhere. It’s in The Secret Key to Heaven, which is a book on prayer. But there’s this line in there that was almost tangential to his point that he was making. And he says, obedience to God in one arena never requires disobedience in another. Joshua Chatman (27:33.262) Mmm, amen. Come on. Austin (27:35.832) And that’s just so important to remember because I think Christians can be tempted to justify doing things that we shouldn’t be doing, supporting people we shouldn’t support, glossing over flaws of deeply flawed leaders because we’re trying to reverse engineer some kind of end. We’re trying to justify something else. Hope in God and keep your integrity. You know what I mean? Like… Joshua Chatman (28:00.878) Amen. Austin (28:02.104) that might mean you lose sometimes. But if you keep your integrity, you’ve won, right? Joshua Chatman (28:08.558) Yeah, yeah. Well, and the end’s never justified a means. Like, man, we wanna engage and vote with a clear conscience to the glory of God. And so we do it in faith, not in fear. We do it trusting the Lord, not trusting and hoping in man. And, you know, the reality is… Austin (28:12.504) Right. Joshua Chatman (28:31.726) Regardless of who wins, things won’t go your way entirely. Like, it just won’t go our way entirely, point blank period. Whether your candidate won or not, even if they take all three, you know what I’m saying? The Oval, Senate, Congress, rarely does things ever just go your way the entire term. It’s just not gonna happen. Austin (28:37.208) That’s right. Joshua Chatman (29:00.654) And so it’s like, to your point, like, man, we don’t have to compromise. We shouldn’t compromise. We should just be faithful, not disengaged, not apathetic, but active, engaging, loving, and hoping in the Lord. Austin (29:17.688) Amen to all of that. I just want to put a finer point on what I’m saying because I think it could be misunderstood. I hear what you’re saying about not compromising and I think that’s true in the big picture sense, but at one level every vote’s a compromise because you’re voting for a sinner and you’re voting for policies written by sinners. We just need to not pretend it’s anything else. Joshua Chatman (29:30.286) Certainly. Yes. Yes. Austin (29:38.488) Every vote is imperfect. And the minute we try to hold up our side in this partisan fashion as being unblemished and free of any human flaws, we’ve gotten ourselves to a dangerous place called an evil good. God really hates that. Joshua Chatman (29:52.878) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Austin (29:57.752) Last category of hope, the hope of heaven. How does the hope of heaven change how we think about our politics? Joshua Chatman (30:05.518) Man. in a number of ways. I would say because we know Jesus is going to one day return and he’s going to consummate his coming kingdom, it changes our politics in a sense of one, we know that all the politics here in this age is temporary. You know, like, and so the hope of heaven gives us, it transcends our perspective to know what’s gonna actually last. And that’s God’s coming kingdom, not Democrats or Republicans, not a democracy or anything like that. And so it gives us hope here to know like, man, that day is as sure to come. and I’m fixing my gaze here on that. It doesn’t mean I’m not discouraged by the things that happen here, but what it does, but even that discouragement drives me all the more to long for Jesus’ return when all things will be made right and he will make all things new. And so it’s just a tangible reminder that our citizenship isn’t here. Our citizenship is in heaven, as Paul said, and from it, we await. That await means we’re looking forward to it. We’re anticipating it. So from it, we await a savior who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body. And so that would be one of the things I would say, that it just really helps us in our political engagement to put things in its proper perspective. Austin (31:47.288) Paul is so helpful on this topic, I think especially because we need to remember, Guy was executed by the state of Rome. We think things are bad now, my goodness. Yeah, I just wanna, yeah, yeah, he wrote half of the New Testament in jail. I mean, I know not half, you get what I’m saying. Joshua Chatman (31:55.822) facts. Joshua Chatman (32:03.086) The man was imprisonment. The man was whipped. Joshua Chatman (32:10.925) I’m tracking with you, yeah. Austin (32:13.176) There’s ethical implications on this one too, because we need to let the hope of heaven outsize everything else and reorder our affections, our attention, our time, our money here. Like, if we’re giving more to political causes than to our church, trouble. If we’re spending more time drinking the poison of political coverage than we are the water of the word, we are in trouble, right? Joshua Chatman (32:26.446) Facts. Joshua Chatman (32:39.886) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep going. Austin (32:41.528) What are we thinking of? What’s occupying our mind? Are we scrolling political news? Are we in the word? Are we praying? I think we can, not just with politics, but with lots of things, we can think that our anxiety is productive. If I really care about this, I should be letting it make me anxious. You see what I’m saying? I don’t think I’m the only one who does that. Joshua Chatman (32:49.262) Mm. Joshua Chatman (33:08.43) Mm -hmm. Austin (33:11.032) That’s not true. It’s not godly and if you really want to do something pray like Ask God to do something like if let’s take all of that anxiety that pushes us towards the things that make it worse let’s redirect that back to prayer and Joshua Chatman (33:16.526) Yeah, come on. Yes. Austin (33:29.784) watch what God does with it. I mean, my goodness, can you imagine? I mean, just, I know God isn’t waiting on us, but what would God do if all of the attention we spent on social media, on cable news and all of that were spent in prayer? Like, what would be happening? I think our world would look different. Joshua Chatman (33:31.47) Mmm. Joshua Chatman (33:43.182) Mmm. Wow. I would certainly say we Christians would live differently, even as we hear those things and navigate those convos. I believe that there will be a peace that surpasses all understanding that will guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. I think that we would know that in this life we will have trouble and yet we will have hope because Christ has overcome the world. And so it’s like even in the political engagement, we would… we would be engaged and we would do it with hope, trusting the Lord, that we would pray way more than, yeah, man, we’d be praying way more than we just consumed by the news and updates regarding either party, either candidate and stuff like that. Again, not a carelessness or a dismissiveness at the same time, we’d be engaged with hope, with real biblical hope and joy. Like, man, we would have joy, like, I mean, Think about it. So like, so as you pointed out earlier, they pray on fear. They want us to be anxious so that we can vote for them. Just imagine like how much of a witness churches would have if we just engage with joy, with joy because of where our hope is in, it’s in Jesus. And so we like, man, yeah, yep, that’s really bad, but it’s all good because God is good. Joshua Chatman (35:15.726) And I trust the Lord, you know, and I’ma pray about this. I’ma pray about this and pray for whoever gets in the office. That man, if our society were flourishing, yet we will be salt and light and be faithful to the Lord in the midst of it all because our hope is in heaven. Austin (35:34.456) Amen. Amen to all of that. Let me close by asking you this. How do we cultivate hope? Like I understand everything you’re saying about how important it is, but what if that’s not where I’m at? What if I’m feeling more fearful than hopeful? How do I cultivate the hope that God has given me? Joshua Chatman (35:38.574) Mm -hmm. Joshua Chatman (35:43.598) Yeah. Joshua Chatman (35:50.702) Yeah, man, you kind of answered the question in one of your last statements on the previous questions. Like man, being in the word more. Man, like. don’t say this like so rigidly or quote unquote legalistically. So you’re not trying to, you not trying to have this as a means for justification before God. We’re saying it’s like, man, seek to cultivate a deeper love for the Lord. And so deny yourself. We should be seeking to deny ourselves the getting off of social media for a period of time or spending less time there and more time in the Word. Thinking like more time learning what are the things that God has actually promised and asking God to help us to hope in them and really discipline ourselves in that. Discipline ourselves to pray more. Disciplines ourselves to, man, for our affections for the Lord and for what is to come to increase. You know, like man, we want the temperature of our affections for Christ to only increase and only abound. And I think as we do that by God’s grace, the spirit will work in our hearts, in our lives, a deeper, a greater hope for what is to come. And so fellowship with the saints on these matters, prayer, time in the word. Yeah, what would you add to that? Austin (37:28.024) I don’t know that I have anything to add to that. I mean, I think you… You answered it and I just, I hope for our listeners that you have community like Josh just described. I know not everyone does. I hear from you in your mail to us that so many folks feel spiritually lonely because of what politics has done to their church. And that just really makes me sad. I hate getting emails. I mean, don’t stop sending them if you need to talk, but you understand what I’m saying. It just makes me so sad to hear of that happening. Cause that’s not my experience at all. Joshua Chatman (37:54.574) Yeah. Yeah. Austin (38:01.242) in, you know, at Iron City Church and I’m just so grateful to have an oasis, a place that feels sane when so much of culture just feels like it’s lost its mind. Joshua Chatman (38:01.71) Hmm. Joshua Chatman (38:08.43) Hmm. Joshua Chatman (38:12.942) Yeah, well, praise God, brother, praise God. Austin (38:17.848) Well, why don’t we do what we’re talking about and go to the Lord in prayer? Do you want to open and I’ll close? Joshua Chatman (38:23.694) Man. Joshua Chatman (38:28.11) gladly, gladly. My Father in heaven, God, you command us in your word to be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving to let our requests be made known to you. Lord, you tell us to fear not so often in your word and you remind us of yourself, your greatness, your power, your compassion, your care. your love, the fact that you are sustaining us. And so Father, we pray that by your grace. we’ll be obedient to those exhortations. That we would trust you, that we will remember you, your greatness, and no one is greater than you. And we would reflect on your tenderly care, your compassion, and how it’s most vividly displayed in the giving of your Son for us and for our salvation. Father, we do pray that your people will be marked by prayer. especially in this season, in light of this upcoming election, God, that we would cast every care upon you, that your peace would transcend our understanding and guard our hearts, that we would trust you knowing that you are faithful and sovereign and good, and you are good to us, regardless of what befalls, for you are faithful and always working for our good. Lord, help us to hope in you and your promises alone. Joshua Chatman (40:08.366) In Christ’s name, Amen. Austin (40:10.84) Amen. Lord, thank you for Josh. Thank you for how he reminds me about heaven and the hope we have. Lord, I pray for our listeners who are not feeling hopeful. I pray for our listeners who are feeling lonely. I pray for our listeners who don’t feel like they have the tools to cultivate this type of hope. Father, would you work that hope in them? would you give it to them supernaturally that your people would be hopeful and grounded in the promises you’ve given us so that we can be salt and light, so that we can love our neighbors, so that we can do what you’ve called us to in the time that you’ve given us. for all this in Jesus’ name, amen. Joshua Chatman (40:59.726) Amen. Austin (41:01.112) Josh, always appreciate it when you come through. Thank you, sir. Joshua Chatman (41:04.59) thank you for having me. It’s always a joy to get to be with you, brother. Austin (41:08.056) feel the same way. Friends, thank you so much for listening. Grace and Peace.