Political Convictions: How We Hold Them

Austin (00:01.772) Grace and peace, friends. Welcome back to United We Pray. Awesome suitor joined by Josh Chapman. How you doing, Josh? Joshua (00:07.054) I’m doing well. I’m doing well, brother. I’m grateful for the opportunity to get to be on the show. And so thank you for having me. How you doing? Austin (00:14.308) I, you know, we’re making it. We, uh, we’re dealing with some personal stuff. Vehicle was stolen, but, uh, we’re, we’re making do trust in the Lord. Yeah, we’ll, we’ll be okay. Um, listeners, this series is something we’ve been talking about doing for a long time and I’m grateful for Josh and his wisdom, especially as a pastor to have on to be able to do this. This is an election year, as you know, and the last election year did not go great. Joshua (00:19.522) Hmm. Joshua (00:24.419) Sorry. Austin (00:44.804) American Christians and in a lot of churches I think we were kind of caught flat-footed with how much we disagree and how deeply we hold our convictions and Didn’t really understand how to relate to each other as we disagreed and so this series is about our political convictions and how we hold them and what we do with them and how we relate to others who disagree and We wanted to have pastor Josh on to talk about how to be Yeah, can you fix this for us Josh? Joshua (00:46.222) Mm-mm. Austin (01:13.762) Can you help us fix American politics and how we disagree with each other? Joshua (01:20.618) I am not able to fix that. I think honestly it will be fixed when Jesus Christ returns. Until then, I believe that by God’s grace, as Christians we should strive to stumble forward, to struggle well in progress. Austin (01:37.268) Yeah, and what this episode is about is how to be an agent of unity during a divisive political season. And so we’re doing this in an election year, but I mean, honestly, with the way the news cycle is and the social media, this applies all the time. It might be worse than the election year, but this will still apply next year. This will still matter the second week of November, not just the first. Joshua (01:54.632) Yeah, more like exasperated it seems like. Mm-hmm. Joshua (02:03.775) Yeah, facts. Austin (02:06.784) So the way we’re doing this and the way we’re breaking this episode down, we want to talk first about things not to do, things we saw a lot of this time four years ago, things we’re probably seeing now. And then we’re going to talk about things we should do. So first in the realm of things not to do, I have here the first one is, appoint myself gatekeeper of everyone’s opinions and convictions. Joshua (02:17.493) Mm-hmm. Joshua (02:22.838) Hmm. Austin (02:35.696) I think we should avoid doing that just out of humility that who made you the arbiter, who made me the arbiter of everyone’s political opinions? Most of us aren’t even qualified to speak on these matters, let alone police everyone else’s. Why do you think we have that instinct to want to go around correcting everybody else? Joshua (02:41.524) Yeah. facts. Joshua (02:48.851) Ha ha! Joshua (02:57.574) Um, man, I think a few things. One, we tend to think that we’re right, as if we know the right answer all the time, and our opinion. Sometimes we forget that our opinion is an opinion. More often than not, we can think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think and assume that our opinion is the right answer, the right response, the right conviction. Therefore… Everyone should share that same thought as us. What about you? What do you think? Austin (03:35.744) Yeah, I mean, there’s no shortage of just talking heads and voices out there spewing opinions 24 seven. I mean, that’s become just like our diet. And I think we just regurgitate a lot of that back. We bring that stuff into church with us and we’re being discipled by pundits and influencers or whoever your preferred folks are more than, you know, Joshua (03:47.819) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. Joshua (03:59.278) Hmm… Yeah. Yeah. Austin (04:06.428) mature Christians in our lives, pastors, folks who are doing this well. Yeah, I mean, we’ve you’ve spoken well about this in our episodes on social media, just about how, you know, careful, measured thought is not rewarded by, you know, the algorithms that curate what’s in front of us. Right. So. It takes a lot of work to just to not be inundated. Joshua (04:09.494) the scriptures. Joshua (04:27.474) Yeah, yeah, it’s definitely not. Mm-hmm. Austin (04:35.584) with opinions and political anger 24-7. Joshua (04:35.786) Yeah. Joshua (04:43.307) For real, I mean that is what we are constantly inundated with. You know, you turn on the news and more often than not when you turn on the news, you’re turning on to your preferred news outlet, you know, like ones that share your convictions. And so you’re going to get it there and then you’re going to regurgitate it as you pointed out. And you already have, like, man, we just come in with biases very often with it. And there’s nothing wrong with that in and of itself. At the same time, we have to be willing and quick to acknowledge that. And also want to check those. You know, like, as you pointed out, a lot of us are not qualified to share our opinions on these matters. And yet, how often do we forget that? You know, how often do we forget to… to obey the biblical command to be quick to listen and slow to speak. And yeah, and even with being quick to listen more often than not we’re only quick to listen to the outlets that we prefer. You know, and then we could be quick to speak after we hear that. Austin (05:40.036) James won. Austin (05:52.98) And what’s the verse right after that? The anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. And look around and see the fruit of man’s anger, right? God help us. Okay, so the next thing on our list is, number one, it’s not our job to correct everybody and be the gatekeeper of everyone’s opinion. Number two is we shouldn’t assume that everyone thinks like me or should. Which goes back to your point about just acknowledging that our opinions on these matters are simply opinions. Joshua (05:57.726) Yeah. For real. Joshua (06:10.899) Mm-hmm. Joshua (06:16.442) Mmm. Joshua (06:22.942) Yeah, yeah. I mean, even when you think about it, God has made a diverse people. Like man, yeah, all of us are equally made in the image of God. We have so much more alike than we’re different. At the same time, Psalm 139 is very much true that we all are fearfully and wonderfully made. And that means that we are all made with… passions, different passions, so to speak, different interests and all these things like that. And so just as we have to have this measure of humility and being mindful that not everybody is like me, we also have to carry that in, you know, in conversations as it pertains to politics, that not everybody thinks like me, not everybody has the same upbringing as myself. And just because people think like me doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. You know, different, how often do we think different is bad? When it’s just different. Yeah, you know, what do you think though? Austin (07:35.041) Yeah, we default to that, yeah. Austin (07:39.616) No, I think that’s really good. I think we assume different is bad and we can be surprised by difference. I hope that what the last election cycle showed us is that we don’t have as much unity of thought in our churches as maybe we previously thought we did. And it might not catch us as flat footed this time. I’m cautiously optimistic of that, that we, okay, now we know we don’t agree on this. Joshua (07:49.196) Mmm. Joshua (08:00.546) Hmm Joshua (08:04.406) Hmm, yeah. Austin (08:10.228) And that’s okay. Like, we don’t have to agree with each other to love each other. Joshua (08:12.035) Yeah. Mmm. That’s good. Austin (08:19.822) I’m just I’m stealing that from Ed Litton. I think that was that was his line. We can link to that episode we had with him a few months ago. Joshua (08:29.066) Yeah, yeah. Austin (08:31.052) Um, I don’t know if you feel that way, but I feel like all of my good lines are just pilfered from somebody else. Like some old saint somewhere. I don’t, I don’t have anything new. Joshua (08:36.127) Oh yeah. Joshua (08:39.618) Oh yeah, same here. See, I just, what’s this one guy say? I just chat-tie some things. I take it, I make it my own. But I definitely got that from somebody. Austin (08:47.718) Yeah. Love that. There’s another thing we can do in just sort of assuming that everyone thinks like me. It’s a sneakier move, though, and we don’t always realize we do it. But we equate my view with Christian. Like, if you were a Christian, you think like me, clearly. Right, chat? Joshua (09:00.056) Hmm Joshua (09:04.439) Yes. Joshua (09:07.918) Mm, yeah. I know, right? Yeah, I don’t know why we, well, I mean, our pride tends to lead us to do this at the same time. It’s just like, that’s just not true. You know, just, we wanna think like Christians. as we should, we want our conscious to be informed by scripture, and at the same time, that also means that there are, you know, as what Paul would talk about in 1 Corinthians 8 and Romans 14, there are conscience matters where people really do differ on. And he even, he was like, yeah, there’s a space for that. You know, whether it’s food or days that you worship, like Paul says it, yeah, you guys will be united in the gospel and you guys will also differ on opinions on these matters and you guys should still walk in love. And so seeing that we have this, like, you know, seeing that there are conscious matters, we need to be very careful to, to conclude that. This is the Christian stance when it’s actually a matter of conscience. Austin (10:28.512) Yes. And I mean, we only know our own experience, right? But there are broad demographic trends, even within churches, that suggest Christians of different cultures and ethnicities have different political convictions. You can’t paint with too broad a brush on that. But Joshua (10:34.707) Mm-hmm. Joshua (10:48.502) Yes. Mmm. Austin (10:53.588) If we’re only ever around people who are like us, when we encounter someone else, we’re likely to be surprised that they might have a different view on politics. But if you think about that for more than 30 seconds, it should make sense. If you have a different culture, different geography, different, like you’re going to have different priorities. You’re going to think there, you know, you’re gonna have different ideas about which problems in our society deserve the most attention and need the most urgent help. And then you’re gonna vote differently. Joshua (11:17.723) Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just do it to the glory of God. Austin (11:25.996) Yes, yes. And the next thing is, don’t hold other Christians in suspicion. And I think we… Joshua (11:32.04) Mmm. Come on, come on, yes, come on. Austin (11:38.648) We’ll get to this later, but even just the words liberal and conservative, you can mean that theologically, ideologically, politically, and those categories don’t track as well as we think they do. Like you can be, you know, theologically conservative and politically liberal, or you know what I mean? Like, and if we make all these assumptions about people and think, oh, well, because they vote that way, they, you know, we must have Joshua (11:44.034) Hmm Joshua (11:56.514) Hmm, yeah. Yeah? Austin (12:07.224) vastly different theological convictions. And man, that’s just not true. Joshua (12:09.186) Hmm, hmm, not at all. Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. And the one thing I would even want to remind ourselves, even with this, is like, how is that being loving? You know, like, how is it being loving to hold other Christians with suspense? Like, where is that, you know, in 1 Corinthians 13, when Paul lays out the description of love. Austin (12:23.704) Mm-hmm. Joshua (12:39.231) Suspense is not included in the description. And so it’s like, man, we just, yeah, hoping all things. Come on, yeah, that’s what love does. And so to hold Christians in suspicion based upon how you would assume they voted or how you hear that they voted, it’s like, well, brothers and sisters, when we do that, we are not being loving. Austin (12:39.788) Right? Right. No, the opposite. But hoping all things, yep, believing all things, hoping all things. Joshua (13:04.854) we’re not being like Christ. If anything, we’re contributing to the possibility of division and contention and being quarrelsome. You know, to which the Lord, like, Paul makes very clear in 2 Timothy chapter two that the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome. Austin (13:25.632) Yeah. Okay. More we could say on that. But I want I want I want to get to where we’re talking about things we should do. This is, you know, a podcast list of not to do is only but so helpful. But there’s one more I wanted to mention, which is just I think we should avoid being lockstep with a political tribe. And I, I hesitate a little bit to bring this up because I’m not saying Christians shouldn’t be involved in the political parties. I think if Christians were to step back, Joshua (13:34.882) Okay. Joshua (13:40.714) I’m sorry. Joshua (13:45.895) Mmm, come on. Austin (13:55.864) from political engagement in that way, things are only getting worse if Christians are doing that. Joshua (14:01.797) Mm-hmm. Yeah, hold on real quick. One of my kids’ toys is just going off. Oh. Austin (14:05.645) I heard it. Joshua (14:40.886) Okay. Austin (14:42.873) Ahem. Joshua (14:51.894) Okay. It’s okay, it’s okay. Joshua (15:07.382) My bad, church member just literally knocked on the door, knocked on the window, I was like, whoa. Austin (15:13.076) I thought I heard, yeah, no, we’re good. I’m just gonna start that answer over and trust our folks to cut and slice. Joshua (15:23.426) Okay. Austin (15:25.144) So the last thing I want to warn about is to not be lockstep with a political tribe. And I don’t mean by that total disengagement with either, I say either, with any political party because I think if Christians totally step back, it would only make things worse. But bro, the political parties we have can be so carnal. And if we think the other side is carnal and our side is not so bad. Joshua (15:29.91) Mmm. Joshua (15:39.918) Hmm. Joshua (15:47.438) Hmm. Yes. Facts. Austin (15:53.064) It might just be because we’ve gotten used to the smell, you know? And we, we need to pray for wisdom that God give us eyes to see ways we need to break with our own preferred tribe. But we, we should, what Christians should expect that a worldly political tribe is going to have God’s perfect priorities. Like Jesus, Jesus gave us no such assurances that we would see that kind of Joshua (15:55.702) Mmm, come on, come on. That’s strong right there, Austin. Joshua (16:08.663) Mm-hmm. Joshua (16:19.272) Hmm. Austin (16:21.508) thing this side of his return. You know what I mean? There’s one king I support all the way. There’s one king who gets it right all the time. Everyone else, everyone else, every other party, every other system, every other politician, if you never disagree with them, it’s a problem. Joshua (16:22.466) Yeah. Yeah, oh yeah. Joshua (16:28.867) Mmm, come on. all the time. Joshua (16:38.551) Mmm. Joshua (16:42.21) Facts, facts. I mean, somebody get this man an organ. I wish I had an organ right now because you are just going in right now. I wish I could just play in the background and just keep it going. It’s like, duh, you know what I’m saying? Like those in the black church, because man, you are spinning some hot fire over there. Austin (16:47.505) Okay Austin (16:56.003) Maybe. Austin (17:01.376) Maybe we do that. Maybe we get an organ in here. Just, I actually know a guy who just sold his, he had a Hammond in his living room and he just sold it. I was so sad. That was what, yeah. We could use that. Joshua (17:12.118) Oh man, oh man, cause we could definitely use that sound right now, especially at this very moment in what you’re saying, because you’re absolutely spot on. Like number one, any party is created by man. You know what I’m saying? Like it’s not from the Lord. It’s not a representation of the kingdom of God coming, breaking into this age. And so one, we have to be aware that no party is gonna be perfect. Only Christ and his kingdom is, no party is. And so for one to be in total lockstep, in every step, of their political party is like, man, we’re not, to be in total lock, I would say this, Austin, to be in total lockstep in every step of a political party, then I would say that Christian, and when Joshua Chapman is tempted towards that, I am not in lockstep with Christ and his kingdom. You know what I’m saying? It’s like in those moments, my allegiance or our allegiance has transferred functionally in that moment from Christ and his kingdom to whatever political party that we are finding ourselves, that we’re identifying with, because in either party, they’re gonna be, you know, like, and I’m gonna say either in any party, there’d be some things that you examine the scriptures, you’d be like, yes. Austin (18:23.573) Yeah. Joshua (18:49.83) Yes, you know what I’m saying? Scripture speaks to this. And at the same time, having said that, there are also gonna be some things that, this is like, whoa, this is going against the teachings of Scripture in these ways. And so to be in total lockstep in every step with a political party is to overlook and to ignore ways that Scripture, Austin (19:13.773) Yes. Joshua (19:17.354) would oppose that party’s agenda. And so that’s why I would say like, yeah, to be in total lockstep in every step with a party is to be out of step with Christ and his kingdom. Austin (19:30.5) That is really well said. OK, let’s transition now to what we should do. And the first thing I had on this list is just recognizing what political calculations, what a vote or what supporting a position is. And it’s like, it’s just going back to what you said earlier. It’s an opinion. It’s a calculation. It’s a decision, oftentimes between imperfect, sometimes very imperfect options. Joshua (19:47.245) Hmm. Joshua (19:58.266) Mm-hmm. Yeah. You got to say more. Go ahead, yeah. No, you’re good. You’re good. Mm. Austin (20:02.356) And we just need to, we need to, sorry, I’m cutting you off, but I think we just need to give each other a lot of grace there. Like we’re all choosing between options and we wish we had better options and oh, I support this here, but I disagree here. And trying to weigh that, that just requires so much wisdom from the Lord. And we’re gonna get that wrong. And we’ll, you know. Joshua (20:16.594) Mm-hmm. Joshua (20:24.398) facts. Austin (20:30.336) In one sense, every vote gets something wrong because Jesus ain’t on the ballot, you know? So, sorry, I get fired up talking about this. I hope we rein it back in. Joshua (20:32.93) Mm-hmm. Come on. That a preach there? Oh my goodness. That’s strong though. No, no, no. Don’t rein that back in. That needs to be said, and needs to be said with a lot of passion because it’s true. And so that’s really strong, brother, seriously. Austin (20:53.676) But I think if we recognize just how imperfect these decisions are, we would be more humble and we’d give each other a little bit more grace on this. Like, okay, yeah, I went one way. I can see how you went the other. Um, let’s, let’s agree to disagree. Agree in the Lord. Joshua (21:01.066) Hmm Joshua (21:04.907) Yeah. Joshua (21:10.086) Yeah, come on now. Yeah, yeah, even with that, like I just think about Ephesians chapter four, as Paul is exhorting the church in Ephesus to walk worthy of the calling to which they’ve been called. And the way to do that, he gives it, he pretty much lays it out for us. How do we do it with all humility? Not some, but all. All humility. Austin (21:33.283) Yes. Joshua (21:37.822) And that’s our responsibility as well. Not just the folks, not just the people who would be bearing with us and who we’re interacting with, but that’s our responsibility as well. You know, humility and gentleness. You know, bearing with one another in love. making every effort to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. And so we have to have this disposition of humility, of charity, of patience. while like, man, and just not think that, I think also, I mean, Isaac has said it a number of times, but like, how often do we forget that people are having to be patient with us? How often we forget how often people have to bear with us? And it’s our responsibility to bear with them as well. And so as you think about the political calculations, people, we’re gonna make informed decisions and we also get to bear with them just as much they get to bear with us. Austin (22:21.004) Oh yeah. Austin (22:38.264) And one way we can do that is just to acknowledge and extend nuance. And I feel like we’re, we’re asymmetrical in our application of nuance. Cause I grant myself a lot. Like, okay, I arrived at the decision for candidate B because I like their positions here, and here. I know that they’re wrong over here, but you know, here’s why I lean this way. But then for Christian who went a different way, we Joshua (22:43.526) Mm-hmm. Joshua (22:49.703) Mm-hmm. Joshua (22:56.33) Mm-hmm. Joshua (23:01.541) Yeah. Austin (23:07.204) only look at the flaws. We don’t look at anything good they might have, you know, any of the strengths of the other candidate, you know. And so we are asymmetrical in our application of that nuance there. We give it to ourselves, we don’t share it with others. And just extending that same charity, I think, is a function of humility. Joshua (23:08.802) Hmm Joshua (23:18.767) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Joshua (23:25.906) Yeah, yeah, facts. Facts. I mean, it kind of goes back to what you just talked about earlier in the episode, like the first… 1 Corinthians 13, the hoping all things, the ability to, like we want to be able to nuance to say these are some of the things why I voted for this candidate though I’m aware of this, that, and the third that I don’t like, that I wish was different, that I disagree with. And to the point you’re saying is give, give that same. love and patience and understanding to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who vote differently. You know, so it’s like, you know, as we nuance, we can’t be saying, man, I can’t believe this, this over here. I can’t believe you voted for them. While we would hope that people would give us understanding. Austin (24:24.036) Sure. Yeah. I think another way we can help this is to just acknowledge the flaws or the shortcomings or the incompleteness of our calculation. So just acknowledging, yes, I support this position, this candidate, this initiative, though I acknowledge it fails in these areas. I feel like we’ve gotten so discipled by the world on this that we can’t. Joshua (24:36.752) Mm-hmm. Joshua (24:48.776) Mm-hmm. Austin (24:52.768) we can’t admit fault. Because if we do, that’s weak and that’s giving to the other side. But Christians are repentant people. That’s where Christianity starts, is acknowledging that we are sinners in need of a savior. So that should be familiar ground for us, right? Joshua (24:54.89) Hmm Joshua (25:00.165) Mm-hmm. Mmm, come on, come on. Mmm, amen, amen. Yeah, yes. Yes. And it’s just like, man, the other, along with that, Austin, it’s like. acknowledging that, I guess one of the things is we just, to the point you said, man, we fear admitting fault, we always want to look right. You know, and so again, from that, or because of that, we’re not, I would even say what that actually exposes is a lack of humility. you know, to where it’s like, man, we want to have the perception and the image of looking right to where we gonna overlook all these other things because we think that would give them ground and therefore we have made the wrong decision. Joshua (26:03.43) in our vote, you know what I’m saying? Which is just like, man, but if a humble disposition would be like, yeah, I acknowledge those things. I wish that was different. I don’t like it. I made a vote holding my breath in these ways. And my hope is not in that. And in fact, a humble disposition would be like, man, I will certainly be praying in light of those things that I disagree with and pray that the Lord will bring about change in those areas. Austin (26:29.396) No, very well said, very well said. We spoke about this earlier, but I think it helps us if we have clear lines of division between theological and political categories. Because when we hear of someone disagreeing, like we can so often just assume huge worldview chasms exist between us and the other person. And when you’re talking about brothers and sisters and the Lord, Joshua (26:39.118) Hmm. Joshua (26:49.378) Mmm. Austin (26:55.04) you already agree about the most important things. You know, like. Joshua (26:57.678) Hmm… Yeah. Yeah? Austin (27:02.532) because we get so wound up about politics, but this world is passing away. And King Jesus plans to be around for a little while. So, like, if we already agree about, I think we should just assume more deep levels of agreement on matters of theology and. Joshua (27:07.982) Come on. Joshua (27:13.526) No. Joshua (27:18.807) Amen. Austin (27:30.508) scripture and just not assume that because a political difference exists, therefore, these other huge differences must follow. Joshua (27:30.562) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Joshua (27:38.538) Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. And even with that, I think a good application is to have more conversations about what you agree theologically. Like, let’s just go ahead and… and handle that conversation like Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians, not 1 Corinthians, Ephesians 4, one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is overall and through all and in all. And so having said that, let’s talk through our theological, like where we are theologically, where we agree theologically, let’s have those conversations because then, especially if this is with someone who you know. you know, especially in person and stuff like that. Let’s have these conversations now because then I won’t be assuming the worst or anything that kind of helps me remember like, oh, this is… this is a brother, this is a sister, especially if y’all are the same church, y’all agree in the same statement of faith. And so it’s like that person is a brother or sister in Christ, so let me not paint them with a broad stroke and to say like, man, they are theologically liberal or theologically whatever because they are voting a particular way or they’ve voted for a particular candidate. Austin (29:00.652) You know, just hearing you say that, I obviously agree with everything you’ve just said. I’ve basically stopped using liberal and conservative as descriptors, whether theologically or politically or anything. Like, I just, I don’t know what they mean anymore. And it’s, you can say more than you mean to. So yeah, I say that, I am not the Lord, but it… Joshua (29:23.71) Mm-hmm. Joshua (29:27.907) Hehehe Austin (29:28.744) It’s like Shai is always saying, you know, we need to be having more specific conversations and defining our terms to understand where the disagreement is because it might not be as bad as we think it is. Joshua (29:39.822) Facts. That is true. And necessary. Ha ha. Austin (29:42.976) Yeah, yeah, but harder to do. Joshua (29:47.638) Very much harder. Yeah, because it takes more work. Number one, even as we talked about nuancing, we don’t like nuancing because it take, like, because you can’t get in a quick clip. You know, like you can’t get nuance again in 240 characters or something like that. And it require following along more as a person nuance and stuff like that. And it’s just like, you know, we want instant reactions. We want instant comments. We want instant so that we can have this quick dialogue. We want to be, you know, like in one sense, Austin (30:32.398) Yes. Joshua (30:33.243) And nuancing also prevents us from generalizing. And the things, again, as you point out, these are the things that we do for ourselves, but we’re not as quick to do that for others. And so, yeah. Austin (30:35.96) Yes. Austin (30:47.64) Yeah, no, that’s really good, Josh. The last thing I have on this list is extending as much charity as we can towards those we disagree with. Like, we don’t have to agree with someone to love them. We don’t even have to understand them to love them. Like, we have to have a category for, I do not understand, I do not know how you got there, I disagree, I don’t really like how you did that, and I love you. Joshua (30:56.43) Facts. Joshua (31:03.593) Mm-hmm. Austin (31:20.3) But that can only exist in the heart of someone for whom politics is not ultimate. Like, you’ve gotta love Jesus more than you love your political convictions in order to have that kind of response towards your brother or sister. But this is not an episode on idolatry. We will do that in a couple weeks. Getting ahead of myself. Joshua (31:20.512) Yes. Joshua (31:28.299) Mmm, come on. That’s strong. Joshua (31:34.535) Mmm facts Joshua (31:46.635) They bleed into each other. And you are absolutely right, man. I mean, that’s the second command. The second is like, love your neighbor as yourself. And so Romans 13, oh, your fellow brothers and sisters love. And so be quick to show love. Be quick and eager to extend it. to fellow brothers and sisters, those who you agree with politically and those who you disagree with politically. I think the nature of the conversations will look radically different. and be held with way more gentleness and kindness. I would say, like, even as you talk about, you know, being ages of unity, I would say, man, if we really gonna do this by God’s grace, we want to see progress, then I would say, let’s meditate on Galatians 5, the fruit of the spirit. Austin (32:42.468) Mm. Yes, amen. Joshua (32:45.418) you know, and like really examine our lives. Is this fruit evident? Is this fruit noticeable in our conversations about politics? Because where you see the fruit of the spirit, you gonna see unity. You know what I’m saying? A community that’s marked by the fruit of the Spirit, that’s gonna be a community that’s marked by love. That’s gonna be a community like, you know, there’s gonna be a ton of unity there. There’s gonna be a ton of humility there. And why? Because that community is gonna look more and more like Jesus, who is love and who is humble and who is gentle. And so, as we really wanna be agents of unity, man, we gotta look to Christ and we really got to, Austin (33:01.449) Oh, that’s good. Yeah. Austin (33:32.332) Yeah, that’s so good. I mean, Christians are truth people, right? We care about truth. We want to preserve, protect truth. We want to discern what truth is. We’re the folks, you know, the pebble in the postmodern shoe of, you know, your truth is your truth. We’re the ones trying to say, you know, no, God’s truth is truth. The trouble with it is like, Joshua (33:40.735) Mm-hmm. Joshua (33:46.358) Yeah. Joshua (33:58.726) Yeah. Austin (34:01.444) neither you nor I nor anybody else has exhaustive knowledge this side of glory. We are all going to get things wrong. So let’s have some humility and be gracious in disagreement. Joshua (34:05.614) Hmm Yeah Joshua (34:15.058) Yeah, that’s good. That’s good, brother. Austin (34:18.688) Well, brother, why don’t we pray to close it out? I can open and you can take us home. Joshua (34:25.235) Yeah, would love to. Austin (34:30.156) Father, thank you that we live in a country where we can express our political opinions. Thank you for the freedom and influence we enjoy in this country. But Lord, please help us to keep it in perspective and to acknowledge it as a good gift from you that is not ultimate and therefore should not be used to divide brothers and sisters in Christ. So Lord, give us. Joshua (34:44.989) Mmm. Joshua (34:50.232) Hmm. Austin (34:57.196) Give us wisdom, give us humility, give us grace to love those we disagree with and to disagree better. To hold our convictions sincerely, but not use them as weapons against our brothers and sisters. Give us, help us to look more like Jesus and less like this arguing divided world around us. And may that be a witness to the world Joshua (35:03.78) Mmm. Joshua (35:19.766) Yes. Austin (35:27.065) Just the truthfulness and goodness of Christ in Jesus name. Amen Joshua (35:31.774) Mm-hmm. Amen. Father, you say in your word how beautiful and precious it is when brothers and sisters dwell in unity. God, I do pray that we as your people who’ve been bought by the blood of Christ, who are citizens of your coming kingdom, God, that it’s marked by, as a kingdom marked by righteousness and love and unity, God, we do pray that we would tangibly reflect that. Austin (35:38.028) Hmm. Austin (35:52.089) Hmm. Joshua (35:58.53) to the watching world, that it will be evident in our conversations about politics. God, we pray that we would be a people who are truly quick to listen, who are truly slow to speak, who are really by your grace, slow to anger. God, may we be quick to show love. May we be quick to have a disposition of gentleness. Father, we pray that your gospel would transform the nature of our conversations, particularly about politics, that we be marked in such a way that no unwholesome talk come out of our mouths, but only such as is good, that we would intentionally think about what would be good, what would serve, what would build up, what would be honest and encouraging. And Father, as we are to be a people of the truth, may we also be loving in how we communicate it. God, may we not be harsh. Seeing that being harsh is not a fruit of the Spirit. But God, may we be loving and gentle. Help us, oh Lord. May our speech on these topics. testify to the fact that we are salt and light, that we have been called out of darkness into your marvelous light. In Jesus’ name, amen. Austin (37:34.4) Amen. Thank you, Josh. Always a pleasure. Joshua (37:39.039) Thank you for the opportunity, seriously. Austin (37:43.105) We are blessed by your wisdom. Thank you so much for all of you listening. Grace and peace.